tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post5796582183629420129..comments2024-03-24T08:18:33.058-04:00Comments on Conversations Over Chai: 12 Angry Men (1957)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-73694270422679280012013-02-13T23:10:54.021-05:002013-02-13T23:10:54.021-05:00 Actually, suspend disbelief for a bit. Until I ac... Actually, suspend disbelief for a bit. Until I actually was part of a jury here in the US, the knife scene didn't even strike me as out of the ordinary. :) <br /><br /><i>Ek Ruka Hua Faisla</i> does not mention any time period - so it <i>could</i> before the jury system was abolished in India. :) It's a scene-by-scene remake, but very well done.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-67047193852895091922013-02-13T11:25:49.587-05:002013-02-13T11:25:49.587-05:00Another one of my favourites and certainly a movie...Another one of my favourites and certainly a movie that made Lumet my favourite director. I also consider this as the Best Debut Movie for any director, Ever. I love the way it builds up using literally nothing but dialogue. That moment when Henry Fonds produces knife still gets me every time I watch(Off course, we have to assume that he somehow sneaked it in. But I don't have much problem with it)<br /><br />I haven't seen Ek Ruka Hua Faisla but is there any explanation as why there are jurors in it because we don't have it in India and I think that would be the biggest obstacle for me to accept that premise. I will give it a try though.SDGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-8859439967433445882013-01-26T13:02:06.661-05:002013-01-26T13:02:06.661-05:00It had the kiss word; maybe it blocks it when it c...It had the kiss word; maybe it blocks it when it comes the first time...E Pradeephttp://epradeep98.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-31216741747139933182013-01-26T12:45:17.024-05:002013-01-26T12:45:17.024-05:00 Do watch this one, Chris. It is available on YouT... Do watch this one, Chris. It is available on YouTube. Annu Kapoor is a dashed fine actor, but I think P.Kapoor's character was meant to be slightly over the top. He is definitely the blusterer with a backstory of his own. I must admit though, that his counterpart in the original was not OTT.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-26624903076732567402013-01-26T12:43:10.812-05:002013-01-26T12:43:10.812-05:00 *Grin* I don't think it was an 'art film&... *Grin* I don't think it was an 'art film'. Remember it was directed by Basu Chatterjee. But it was directed for the television, not for the cinema halls, and that made a difference.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-87308090378450273342013-01-25T23:20:14.964-05:002013-01-25T23:20:14.964-05:00" it was so different from most of the films ..." it was so different from most of the films being made back then in India'<br />It was an ART film so it had to be different! Satires like Jaane Bhi do yaron and Mohan Joshi Haazir Ho! were also 'art' films.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-86622254717496527272013-01-25T22:57:24.760-05:002013-01-25T22:57:24.760-05:00I also liked 'Ek Ruka Hua Faisla' and have...I also liked 'Ek Ruka Hua Faisla' and haven't seen its original yet. IMO ,in the hindi version, Pankaj was over-the-top, Annu Kapoor was good - he hosted 'Antakshari' I think on tv, right? was he a singer too? and for some reason mostly acted in <br />Anil Kapoor's films I recall.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-22940267295471445042013-01-25T14:22:14.594-05:002013-01-25T14:22:14.594-05:00Well, it is interesting - this comment was publish...Well, it is interesting - this comment was published even though it had the R word. But your comment on <i>Notorious</i> which was so innocuous went into spam. I'll never understand what Disqus is up to. Sigh.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-79439856386017773082013-01-25T13:04:00.145-05:002013-01-25T13:04:00.145-05:00Oh, never bothered to check if any comments have g...Oh, never bothered to check if any comments have gone into spam for my blog - let me see now...'Rape' as spam! Maybe...Fairly conservative software!!!E Pradeephttp://epradeep98.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-66580779274137527502013-01-24T16:42:51.584-05:002013-01-24T16:42:51.584-05:00 We are never objective, Pradeep. That is a fine p... We are never objective, Pradeep. That is a fine point you make there. Our views are always subjective, and coloured by life and experiences. <br /><br />Yes, it was a box-office disaster; it wasn't until it began its showing on television that it achieved its present fame.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-92228877001226072462013-01-24T16:40:43.232-05:002013-01-24T16:40:43.232-05:00Sorry, Pradeep. I don't know why Disqus threw ...Sorry, Pradeep. I don't know why Disqus threw it into Spam. Mention of 'rape' perhaps? I don't know. I haven't even set any filters. : (Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-61053528197051332962013-01-24T13:50:59.743-05:002013-01-24T13:50:59.743-05:00Can't see my comment, was a long one..Can'...Can't see my comment, was a long one..Can't type again!E Pradeephttp://epradeep98.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-80163174038348195952013-01-24T13:33:29.058-05:002013-01-24T13:33:29.058-05:00Just like most others, I remember first watching ‘...Just like most others, I remember first watching ‘Ek Ruka Hua<br />Faisla’ many years back when in school. Came across ’12 Angry Men’ much later<br />during one of those MBA corporate training classes dealing with leadership,<br />influencing opinion – something like that! Both the English and the Hindi<br />versions (adapted faithfully as you mentioned) are remarkable not just for the<br />script that keeps you glued to the screen but also the insights that it throws<br />on human behaviour and our attitudes. <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />It is a fascinating case study of human behaviour in a mob; by<br />getting 12 men from different walks of life to peer through the death of an under<br />privileged man, the director sheds light on class, racial, social and all other<br />aspects that drive our behaviour in different situations. We cannot be absolutely<br />objective in life – every observation or response is driven by some conscious<br />or sub-conscious experience that we have undergone. The movie is also important<br />now in the post-Delhi rape times when there is so much clamour for instant<br />justice, even at the cost of a fair trail (even though the anger is justified).<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />It was a box-office disaster, was it? What a pity – must have<br />become a DVD classic like Hotel Rwanda and Shawshank Redemption which make<br />great comebacks through the DVD circuit later on. E Pradeephttp://epradeep98.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-8086199144549851172013-01-23T23:51:29.866-05:002013-01-23T23:51:29.866-05:00 I had a personal reason (which is not for public ... I had a personal reason (which is not for public debate) too for recusing myself other than my reluctance to make myself the arbiter who would either victimise a young girl further, or incarcerate an innocent young man. <br /><br />I do agree with you about not allowing distaste to turn you away from the moral responsibility that the job confers on you, however.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-63511215582298805842013-01-23T23:43:41.230-05:002013-01-23T23:43:41.230-05:00India has now done away with Jury system of trial....India has now done away with Jury system of trial. I guess it is for the good. Our ills are somewhere else, but I do not intend to enter into this discussion, which is not germane to the theme here. Now just a quick observation on 'recusing oneself'. One type of recusing, where you have a conflict of interest, is very obvious, and morally correct too. I can see Shashi Kapoor's reluctance in <i>Deewar</i> in this light. But then you won't have <i>Mere paas ma hai</i>, and Lord Krishna style sermon about duty and filial love, and the great classic. But what about recusing because the choices are too difficult to handle? I can see your dilemma, but I don't think there is a 'right' answer, which is also morally satisfying.Songs Of Yorehttp://twitter.com/SongsOfYorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-62151602086470725672013-01-23T20:04:36.606-05:002013-01-23T20:04:36.606-05:00Thanks, Yves. Yes, it is one of the best trial mov...Thanks, Yves. Yes, it is one of the best trial movies out there. I'm surprised at the uses to which you are putting it - surprised and impressed. :) But take a look at my discussion with Songs of Yore below - what do you think? Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-70727912720297615002013-01-23T20:02:50.005-05:002013-01-23T20:02:50.005-05:00 Don't talk to me about Aitbaar *even though* ... Don't talk to me about <i>Aitbaar</i> *even though* I think it was 'better' than usual. 'Better' is relative. <br /><br />I agree about 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Because that is a question that always haunts me - is it better to let 99 guilty men go scot-free than to let one innocent man be wrongly imprisoned? When you see what havoc *one* guilty man can wreak when let loose, you wonder at the many, many innocents who suffer at his hands. So, how do you weigh the balance - one innocent against many innocents or one innocent against many guilty? Or what? <br /><br />It is a horrible place to be in. As I mentioned in the post, jury duty is a civic responsibility in the US. I was called up for jury duty in a sexual abuse case, and I had to recuse myself. On one side was a teenage girl who must have been 13 or 14 when the alleged abuse happened. On the other was a young man of 23 or 24 who must have been 18 or 19 when the incident occurred. How the heck do you really decide whether it was consensual/abuse/somewhere in between? It all depends on 'he said/she said'. <br /><br />And to have someone you *know* is guilty be acquitted because of 'reasonable doubt' - I can't imagine adding insult to injury to the victims. It is very hard.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-53185256339607640022013-01-23T15:31:22.718-05:002013-01-23T15:31:22.718-05:00Hi Anu,
Thanks for a nice review of arch-famous mo...Hi Anu,<br />Thanks for a nice review of arch-famous movie, one of the best jury-movies I know. I study it regularly with my students and know many of the cues by heart, down to the intonations and length of silences following them! ("you don't really mean you'll kill me, do you?"...)<br />I also plan to use it soon with an adult philosophy class, to introduce them to the phenomena of reality ("facts, what are facts? You can twist them any way you want"), of opinion, thinking, doubting, and knowing ("You think so; do you know so?"), of daring to speak and risking being wrong, of voicing your opinion even in the face of professionals, whose authority can be so daunting when you've never been confronted to a mistake, and in short being part of a democracy where so much depends on your representatives who of course know better than do ("I'm just a working man, my boss does the supposin'")...Yves Millounoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-28694084478314512772013-01-23T14:19:01.541-05:002013-01-23T14:19:01.541-05:00Anu,
An outstanding review. I too first watched E...Anu,<br />An outstanding review. I too first watched <i>Ek Ruka Hua Faisla</i>, and then <i>Tweelve Angry Men</i>. You are right. What struck me was the quality of the Hindi adaptation, considering that we are used to seeing some horrible adaptations. One I particularly remember is <i>Aitbaar</i>, based on <i>Dail M For Murder</i>. While the Hitchcock movie is remarkable for his typical brevity in the ending, Raj Babbar goes on and on, on a shooting spree after the movied has ended. These guys should be prosecuted for murdering Hitchcock.<br /><br /><i>Beyond any reasonable doubt</i> I guess is a tricky question for any society. What if he was not guilty and he is convicted, or conversely what if he was guilty and gets scot free on the principle of <i>beyond reasonable doubt</i>? Do we let go 99 criminals so that not one innocent is convicted? Staticians call it Type I and Type II error - you reduce one type of error, the other goes up. I am told in French jurisprudence the burden of proof lies on the accused. This issue becomes very important in Indian context with painfully slow and inefficient judicial system with abysmally low conviction rates. When I see open and shut cases being acquitted on the slightest technical point in the name of <i>beyond any reasonable doubt</i>, it does make me uncomfortable. The honourable judge does not leave it at that, he does not forget to berate the police severely for shoddy investigation. While both the versions are excellent, it would be dangerous to use theirr underlying theme for rationalising the kind of acquittals we see here. (I hope I am not hauled up for contempt of court).Songs Of Yorehttp://twitter.com/SongsOfYorenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-68081590697002656022013-01-23T10:49:20.339-05:002013-01-23T10:49:20.339-05:00Ashokji, the Hindi version kept faithfully to its ...Ashokji, the Hindi version kept faithfully to its original. The soliloquy by Pankaj Kapoor is pretty much the same as Lee Cobb's version - again, fine acting in both versions. Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-63133052269605842772013-01-23T10:48:13.522-05:002013-01-23T10:48:13.522-05:00 Actually, watch it back-to-back with Anatomy of a... Actually, watch it back-to-back with <i>Anatomy of a Murder</i>, Madhu. That shows you how a murder trial is prepared and defended; this one shows you how a jury deliberates. Between the two, you get a pretty accurate idea of how the courts work in the US. Truly, two fine, fine films. AoaM actually has more humour; 12AM is very, very tense. Finely acted, tautly directed movies, both of them. And I know you will enjoy it.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-4855505743267844342013-01-23T04:13:02.492-05:002013-01-23T04:13:02.492-05:00Ek Ruka Hua Faisla - http://youtu.be/nHubBwmet0I- ...Ek Ruka Hua Faisla - http://youtu.be/nHubBwmet0I- depicts the jury system in force. Even as it is a very creative adaptation, one very unique feature is the soliloquy (from1.50.00 onwards) that puts charchter of Pankaj Kapoor on the stage as main "protagonist" in quite a queer turn of the story. Ashok M Vaishnavhttp://amvaishnav.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-47150553431118639832013-01-23T00:43:05.466-05:002013-01-23T00:43:05.466-05:00I remember Ek Ruka Hua Faisla (and had liked it a ...I remember <i>Ek Ruka Hua Faisla</i> (and had liked it a lot - it was so different from most of the films being made back then in India), but came to know of <i>12 Angry Men</i> only a few years back. And, I must sheepishly confess, I haven't got around to watching it yet, though a lot of people have been recommending it. Your review convinces me, Anu. Will do! :-)dustedoffhttp://dustedoff.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-3668187924050321802013-01-22T20:03:18.402-05:002013-01-22T20:03:18.402-05:00 There used to be, Soumya, until the Nanavati case... There used to be, Soumya, until the Nanavati case in 1959. There is no mention of the period in which <i>Ek Ruka Hua Faisla</i> is set. So, assuming that it was set before 1959, I thought it was a pretty good remake.Anu Warrierhttp://anuradhawarrier.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2309362817539389132.post-88723873015279013542013-01-22T19:34:40.005-05:002013-01-22T19:34:40.005-05:00One of my favorite films too. I had seen it before...One of my favorite films too. I had seen it before 'Ek Ruka Hua Faisla'. So I was a little disappointed with the production values of the latter, especially the make-up. But it was made for TV, so what could you expect. The biggest jarring note in the remake was that there is no jury system of trial in India.Soumyanoreply@blogger.com